Episode 60: How a Passion for Politics Built a Career in Background Screening

Dan Shoemaker did not start in background screening. He began his career in politics and public policy, working on campaigns, serving in Virginia state government, and lobbying at the federal level.

After 9/11, an unexpected opportunity led him into the screening industry. What he thought would be a short detour became a long and distinguished career.

Along the way, Dan:

• Earned his MBA while working full time and raising young children
• Led business units with hundreds of employees
• Built and integrated global screening operations across Europe and Asia
• Served as Chair of PBSA during the launch of accreditation
• Became CEO during a period of acquisitions and rapid growth
• Now serves as Chief Revenue Officer at Accurate
  
  

His journey is proof that careers are rarely linear. They are built by taking risks, saying yes to opportunity, and staying open to change.

In This Episode, You’ll Learn:

• Why taking calculated risks is essential for long-term career growth
• How to build a leadership path from inside your organization
• What it really takes to scale screening operations globally
• The cultural differences in international business development
• Why mentorship accelerates professional success
• How PBSA helped shape the modern screening industry
• Why background screening offers exposure to the world’s most influential companies
• The importance of staying adaptable in a rapidly evolving industry

This Episode Is For You If:

• You want to move into leadership within the screening industry
• You are considering international expansion or global partnerships
• You are early in your career and unsure how to chart your next move
• You believe in mentorship and long-term professional growth
• You want to understand how industry leaders think about risk and opportunity
• You are involved with PBSA or considering deeper engagement
  
  

Outside of screening, Dan is a lifelong drummer who plays in a 90s and 2000s cover band. He is also an avid surfer and a self-proclaimed train enthusiast, carrying forward a childhood passion inspired by his father.

Leadership, for Dan, is not just about titles. It is about curiosity, balance, and continuing to grow in every season of life.

If you are building your career, considering your next move, or simply reflecting on where this industry is headed, this episode will challenge and inspire you.

Listen now to Episode 60 of Behind the Screens.

Connect with US:

• Les Rosen- https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesterrosen/
• Subscribe to our YouTube Channel- https://www.youtube.com/@BehindtheSCreens200

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

What I really love about this space is we get to work with some of the most amazing uh companies in the world. Like when you think about it Les, and you know this, like we can sell what we sell to any any employer. Any employer will go by buy our plot, right?

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

And so there's not a lot of industries that you can work in where you can work with Fortune 500 companies, Fortune 10 companies, like to be able to interact with some of the biggest brands or the the most important companies or the you know the most prestigious companies in the world, and to help them mitigate risk and hire great talent and all the things that we do. I mean, that like that was so cool, right?

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Welcome to Behind the Screens Conversations with Background Screening Pros. I'm Les Rosen, your host, and I'm excited to have you here. On this podcast, we chat with the people who know the background screening world inside and out. Executives, industry experts, legal pros, and more. We dive into their personal stories and insights to give you a real look at what's happening behind the scenes. Whether you work in the screening industry or are just curious, behind the screens bring you the real unfiltered conversations from the people who make it all happen. Stick around for stories you won't hear anywhere else. Hey, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another edition of Behind the Screens version 2026. And today I'm delighted to have with me a person I have known for a long time, a person who truly deserves the title of a distinguished member of the background screening community, not only has been a past chair of NAPBS slash PBSA, has held many leadership positions, including CEO, and who has what I can only describe, and this is the only person that I have used this word for, an illustrious career in the screening industry. It's a pleasure to have with us Mr. Dan Schumacher. Dan, welcome to the program.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Really truly my pleasure, and thank you for those very kind comments, Les.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

No, and and it's so much so much fun to have a chance to talk to you. So let's start with our icebreaker. Where where are you talking to us from? Where in the world is Dan Schumacher these days?

SPEAKER_02 2:27

Well, as you know, we've been all over the world, so it's a good question. We have uh we're in in Charleston, South Carolina, and so we're right outside Charleston in Mount Pleasant, and uh we've been here for about three and a half years.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

So it's wow. And speaking of being all over the world, and where were you before that? Give us a little a quick itinerary.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

Yeah, well, we're working Bennett Corn, so we moved here from San Diego, so we were in Coronado, and we were there for six years, and then before that, we were in Nashville for three years, and then we were in London, and you came over and saw us in London, right? Um, which was a ton of fun. We were there for three years. Before that, we were in Chicago. Wow, we were also there for three years. That's kind of the magic number. And then before that, we were kind of at whole. We'd I grew up right outside Washington, D.C., in northern Virginia. So we were living in Fairfax County, Virginia.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

And we'll circle back to Virginia because you you have some fascinating stories about your your work in Virginia government. It's fantastic. So I mean, I mean where where you have lived is like a top 10 list, uh it's like a bucket list. I mean, Coronado is if you've not been to Coronado in San Diego, it's absolutely gorgeous. But where you live now is is fantastic. I love Charleston. And I mean, Chicago is like one of my favorite cities. So anyway, and in London for three years. So basically, you're living my life. I realize I you you you're living every place I would have liked to have lived. That's fantastic. All right. All right. So let's get down to work here. What are you doing these days? What are you occupying your time with professionally?

SPEAKER_02 4:07

Yeah, no, I'm I I have the the pleasure of being the chief revenue officer at Accurate. I've been here for five years. And so in that role, you know, I'm responsible for all of our go-to-market teams. So from marketing through sales, onboard implementation, customer service, account management. So kind of the whole life cycle of the client, which is wonderful. I've got an amazing team of folks across the world. We're selling and supporting our clients. And Acura it's been a great business to be a part of. I mean, you know Dave Dickerson, the business is still founder-owned. You know, Dave's been obviously in this space for 25 plus years himself and has had a ton of success. And it still had like that entrepreneurial spirit to it, which you know very well, being an entrepreneur yourself. And so it's just, it's fun. It's nimble, it's great people. We're very focused on the client and customer experience that's paramount to us. But it's a big company. I mean, we're a global company, you know, we're the size of some of the bigger firms. We compete with all the bigger firms, but it's just a really fun place to be.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Oh, that's great. I mean, obviously, I've known Dave for, you know, ever since I can remember. And uh, I mean, Accurate's obviously a real happening firm. It's just like exploded. Yeah. So congratulations. And you're you know, you know, that's a great place to be a part of. So yeah, that's great. So what was your your career path leading up to Accurate? Because that was obviously not your first rodeo.

SPEAKER_02 5:37

Well, and as you kind of, I mean, as you kind of intimated earlier, I mean, my career path has been interesting. I started in politics and policy, and that was like my passion. You know, when I was growing up, my mother was a real influence on me about the importance of being a citizen and playing a role and being on top of issues and having opinions, and that was important to us as a family. And so she kind of got me into this political bug. And I was volunteering when I was high school and I was working at a congressional office as an intern. And when I got out of college, I was like, I want to get involved in politics and policy life. That's my thing. And so I got into retail politics, and I was running campaigns or a part of campaigns at the like the local level, the state level, congressional level, and I did that for about three and a half years. And it's like this frenetic pace working on a political campaign because you're kind of you're on go for six months or so. You know, it's a 24-hour job, right? And you also get to do so many different things, and I think that's what I loved about it. It's like, you know, one day you'd be like, I was working on a congressional race, and one day I'd be driving the guy, you know, the congressman around. Like literally, I was his driver. The next day, you know, we were doing donor calls and we were, you know, working the phones for money. The next day I was, you know, stuffing envelopes, and the next day I might be like talking to the press. So you you wear all these like different hats, you know, when you're in the political in some of that political campaign mode. And I loved that. I loved, you know, kind of that the rapid change. I loved the idea of getting to play different roles in and so I I really enjoyed that. I think I just kind of I fell out of I kind of lost my idealism, which I think a lot of people do working in politics. And I wanted to kind of get into more policy. And so I got a job actually at a trade association, which we'll talk about later. We'll talk about PBSA, as a lobbyist. And I'd built sort of our federal lobbying practice for this aviation trade association based in DC, and I started their PAC, and I was on the Hill, you know, lobbying for, you know, Gudwazad and Y SAA, etc. And then from there I got an opportunity to work in state government in Virginia, as you alluded to earlier. And I spent three years working for the governor or Governor Jim Gilmore at the time in Richmond, and I was a essentially like a policy assistant to the governor, was kind of my role. And underneath our rage, we had the ports, you know, there's big ports in Virginia and Norfolk, and we had the aviation authorities, and we had obviously the Virginia Department of Transportation, which maintained all the roads, and we had the transit, and we had the D and V. And so it was like uh you know, it was like a three billion dollar budget and you know, tens of thousands of employees, and it was just I love it. I mean, I just loved it. I loved working in that kind of that also that fast pace, but you know, much like in politics, when you get a chance at a very young age to be exposed to like these pretty incredible people, right? A governor or a congressman or whatever, you know, and you have to kind of elevate your gain to be able to kind of play in that. It was a lot of fun. It was a great challenge. So I I did that for a while. And I was pretty convinced after 9-11. 9-11 happened. We were in the governor's office then. That was that's a whole other story to tell at some point. And I was thinking, like, okay, I'm gonna get a policy job in the Bush administration. Like, that was what my next step was. I wanted to get DOT. Like, this is like I want to work at the fiddle all, you know. And I was waiting for a guy to get confirmed on Capitol Hill, the person I wanted to work for, and his confirmation kept getting held up. And meanwhile, my wife Jennifer was pregnant and she's about to have our first child, and you know, she wanted to, we wanted to be able to, she wanted to be only not have to work and to stay at home with him. And so my boss at the time, Shirley Waibera, had gotten an inquiry from someone named Billy Lee. And Billy Lee had inquired about they were looking for someone, this company called Total Information Services was looking for someone to kind of build a federal practice post-9-11. As you know, they were big in the trucking space, this DAC services, and they wanted to know like, well, how can we be a part of that from a policy perspective? You know, we've got these new requirements that come out for background checks for hazmat drivers and pilots, etc. And so I interviewed for the job with Billy in Tulsa and some other folks, like Derek Hinton, and got a chance to I was I was affording the opportunity to join the company, unless honestly, I'd thought like I'm just gonna take this job and then this guy's gonna get confirmed, and then I'm just gonna you know go down that tack, right? Like that may be. And of course, that never happened. So uh Oh, that's an amazing story.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

I and first of all, a shout out to Billy Lee, who is just an industry veteran and still you know really involved in the business, and and obviously our friend Derek, who has been a guest previously, and uh all that. So and and that that turned into uh USIS, obviously. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 11:13

That turned into USIS, and I just I just kind of fell in love with the world of business and the private sector and the challenges of selling and marketing. And I actually decided to go back to school and got an MBA and USIS bought Total Information Services, as you noted, and then I moved into the government part of that business. The federal background investigations harmed the business. I worked in corporate development, so we did MA and corporate strategy. We sold the business to a private equity firm. We were buying businesses, and so I was part of that corporate development team, and that's where I kind of honed sort of some of my financial skills, you know, of uh building the models and understanding the strategy and doing the due diligence. And and I had a great mentor then, a guy named Phil Sweeney, who was the CFO and then became sort of the head of corporate development. And I love doing that, and but I wanted to be like I wanted to be a CEO. And that was kind of where I was like, okay, I love this whole game. I want to get into it, and how do I get to that next step? And so he gave me some good advice like you need to get an operational role, you know, you need to go out and run the business. And so at USIS, we had these business units around the country, because we had you know 3,000 investigators nationwide. We broke up the country in these different business units. And so I took this job running one of the business units in Chicago. You know, it was a $70 million PL. We had 300 employees, and it was just a great opportunity to just, as you know, as a business leader to yourself, like to get your hands on that, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Like what business unit was it? What would what were they doing?

SPEAKER_02 12:50

They were doing part of the federal background investigation. Oh, sure, okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

I mean, that's what USA was famous for for years. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:56

Yeah. So we were going to per OPM and DOD, and it was an incredible, it was a lot of fun. It was an incredible experience. And I was thinking about this just recently. So at the same time I was joining PDSA or NAPDS at that time, right? And I was already involved in that. I was I was there at the Scottsdale conference, and I raised my hand and said, hey, I'd like to help with government affairs. I kind of know that stuff. You know, I think I can I think I can help there. And I joined the board in 2006, and when I became chair in 2009, Bob Capwell and I went to London and we were gonna we were trying to start, you know, sort of the Amia chapter of then in it of PBSA. And when we were in London together, which had a great time, of course, you can't not have a great time with Bob Capwell.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

I've I've I've heard rumors to that effect.

SPEAKER_02 13:46

I did I just talked to Bob this morning and uh it's so we were in London and we were we were you know we were going to meetings and we were meeting with you know entrepreneurs and meeting with you know CEOs and et cetera, and we were in we were just in a black cab and I looked at Bob and I said, Man, I would really love to live here. Wouldn't it be cool to live here? Yeah, yeah, I didn't know it would be cool to live here. I was suddenly like in the back of my head, like, okay, I gotta get you know sort of some you know international experience that's important to me. And I just I really just as I was talking to these companies and I was seeing that they did things differently and just the challenge of kind of operating in a a bit of a different world, like literally, just it I just was sort of overcome by this idea like this is what I want to do next. And then ironically, about a year later, I was at a conference and we had purchased higher right and we had purchased then Kroll, and then the CEO at the time, Mike Patrulo, came up to me and he said, I I heard you're interested in international business, I might have an opportunity for you. He said, We're we're looking to hire someone to kind of build out our business outside the U.S. Is that something that you would be interested in? I was like, Absolutely, I'm all in. Or where do I sign up? And then he was like, and he said to me, he said, no, you could you could do this from Irvine, California. You guys could move from Chicago to Orange County. And I said, No, no, Mike, be I gotta be London. Yeah, I've had to be London Brandy. He said, Yeah, no, you're right, we could do that, we'll do that. And so he was uh gracious enough to give me the opportunity to do that. And then you know, went over to the UK and we you know integrated a couple businesses that we bought. One of them was Power Checks, which was a business started by an entrepreneur, Alexander Kelly, who you might know.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Yeah, I I had lunch with her once in London.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

Yeah, she was great.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:45

And then we integrated the curl business and we just started to build out this global business. Fantastic. It's just an incredible time, so much fun. And that kind of led to the other elements, right? It's like, okay, well, you're you're now a GM and you're managing a PL and you're kind of got your hands in everything, and and then it was just sort of like, okay, what's the next step? And I think the next one.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Well, let me just interrupt you one second. You you you you got you kind of snuck in that I that you that while you were doing all this, you that you got an MBA, and it was like you kind of glossed over that. That's no small thing. Where what what was that? Where'd you get that? Where'd you go? What'd you do?

SPEAKER_02 16:21

So I did that at I went to Georgetown, and when I started, my second son, Will, was just born. So I think I started in September and he was born in July. And I did that for two years.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

So Jennifer, you had you have two you have two kids, and a third will be coming. And you're work you're a full-time dad, full-time family man, full-time working, and and you're getting your MBA. Correct, yes. So you you gave up what, sleeping?

SPEAKER_02 16:52

It felt like it. I remember there was one summer, of course, Jennifer remembers this very well too, that I took a I was helping kind of run the marketing department at at the commercial services division of the USIS, which was in Tulsa. And I remember just I went study on the plane. Like I used the plane as my time to open up books and to read, and I used the time at the hotel to do all of these things. And yeah, it was a I mean, it was a real dizzy time of our life. There's no doubt.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

That was a great and Jennifer obviously supported you and the whole thing. Yes, it's amazing. Very much so. So so fast forward to London. I remember your apartment. I had a great time there one night, and you were sort of just a little north of Kensington Gardens near near the Peter Pan statue.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Yeah, we I mean we had this just amazing lat in London that overlooked. I mean, it's just it was like a it was like a fairy tale, right? It overlooked Hyde Park. Oh, Hyde Park, right, yeah. That was our front yard was Hyde Park. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so at the time, of course, we had four kids because Kitty had been born. And so we lived a very urban life. You know, we took the bus to the tube everywhere, or we would walk, or they would cycle. We used the park as our front yard, as I said, and we had just an amazing time. I mean, not only was it an amazing time, obviously, and challenge from a business perspective, you know, sort of professionally, but personally, it was just incredible, right? I mean, just to be there and to meet these incredible friends and to be able to travel throughout Europe. I remember I used to tell my colleagues, like when they were saying, like, I'm going on a sales pitch to Cleveland, I'd say, Yeah, I'm going on a sales pitch to Geneva.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

So I don't win friends and influence people. Exactly, right. Got a checkmate on that.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

All right.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

So I mean, I I have to share. I had a wonderful evening with your family. We were uh you invited me over and uh you met all the kids and uh you had a nice bread. The kids were little toddlers. What are they doing now? I mean, I remember them as just you know little little munchguns, and now they're probably not so little.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

No, we they really aren't. So my youngest kitty is a junior in high school. Oh my gosh. And I think when you were there last, she was probably I went two?

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

Yeah. I'm thinking. And then Charlotte is a freshman at Cherney College in Dubly. Wow. So she kind of got that bug of wanting to you know kind of expand her weight. And then William or Will is a junior at Olmus. And then John is he's in the process of getting a job potentially with one of the federal law enforcement agencies. So he graduated from Clemson in December, last December. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Wow. That's fantastic. Well, congratulations. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I mean, and it's just so funny. I mean, you know, of course, you're making me feel really old. I remember them as being these delightful little little rug rats. You know, they're all right. They're all grown up, and and you and I haven't aged a day, so I don't know how that works. But uh And I remember seeing you one more time in London. I happened to arrive the day or the day before you were leaving. We had a quick beer at a local bar, and and uh you had to go, I gotta run. I'm going back to the United States today or tomorrow. I knew I'd get to play. Yeah, yeah, really. Yeah, that's all right. And and and uh, you get the check. I gotta get the flight. No, no, I'm just kidding. So so so three years in London, man, that's um that's my dream. I I I used to go to London two or three times a year during that period, so I was able to catch up with you occasionally, so that's fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

Well, I was gonna say, as you have said, I mean, it's the greatest city of the world, I think. So I mean, yeah, hands down.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Yeah, I was that that old saying, Samuel Peeps, if you're if you're tired of London, you're tired of life. So it's just so much fun. So yeah. So true. Wow, fantastic. So so then at some point they had to yank you out of London, I I guess. Your tenure was over.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

Yeah, I came back to the States and we went back to we went to Nashville, and I was you know working on the America's business, and we were trying to, you know, kind of stayed up what we do in Canada, and we were trying to build something in Latin America, and obviously he had all of our clients in the U.S. And then you know I got a call from a a headhunter who was saying that there's a small screeny company that's looking to, you know, they will roll up a few others and sort of build out a you know a larger firm and it's a family-owned business or a family office-owned business. And that's when I we moved to San Diego and I started to run People Fax. Right. Which at the time was you know a seven million dollar business. It was based in uh Toledo, Ohio, really. But we had a we had an office in San Diego too. And we just for 18 months we did two acquisitions. We we went out and we bought Nancy Roberts' business, track one and of course I knew Nancy really well, and that was a lot of fun one to kind of be a part of that process with her because You know, as you know, had to be an entrepreneur building a business yourself. I mean, that's like that's your baby, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:05

And so Yeah, and and and Nancy built a great business. Oh, like Nancy Roberts, she was really good.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

She absolutely built a great business with great people, and it became kind of a foundation for us. And then I mean, like eight, nine months later, we went out and bought Universal. So, you know, the business went from seven to seventy plus pretty quick. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

Pretty quick.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

And it was fun. It was a good ride. And then I just decided it was time to just sort of take some time off. And I took some time off. And during that time, I kind of got reconnected with Tim Dow. And Tim and I had worked together back in the USIS days because he he was running the USIS commercial services division. And I was in corporate, you know, being the corporate Didally guy. And he's like, I think we're gonna, you know, we might be doing something in the space, we might be looking at an acquisition. You want to come help me? You can do this. I was like, great. And so I got together with him and Dave Dickerson, and we did the career builder acquisition, and then I came on board full-time shortly thereafter as the CRO. And we closed Career Builder March 20th, uh 2020. So, like minutes before the world shut down, which was like it was, you know, because COVID had just started to hit. And so it was it was an interesting time to be a part of that. It was a really interesting time to integrate business, you know, very during COVID. But it it's been fantastic and really has been fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

And a shout out to Tim. I met Tim a long time ago. I was on in Tulsa, been in Tulsa a couple times, and toured USIS and was amazed at you know, just just how many people there were, how much was going on, and and uh had a chance to get to know Tim a little bit. So they all all great people that Tim and Dave, Dickerson and so forth. So that's you you've been uh you know fortunate or hang out with them, they've been fortunate to hang out with you, so it's all all good. It's great. And so and that brings us up to date. So now you're now you're happily as conced with accurate, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:14

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, no, it's been it's been a lot of fun. I mean it's been fun to you know kind of scale the the go-to-market tea, you know, from a smaller business to where we are today. And it's been it's just a great group of people to work for. I mean, I know that kind of sounds cliche, but it I mean, when people ask me like what what do I love about working at Accurate? I always say that. It's like I just love working with the team. It's just they're just really good voice.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

And and previously Kate Harley was on the program, she's a past chair, and she's at Accurate. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's just amazing. So we're gonna get to PBSA in a little bit because you you know you had a uh again, a distinguished career at PBSA. But before we get there, we you know, we we've talked about a few people, but are are there any mentors or any other influencers you want to give a shout out to, or you know, it's been kind of instrumental in in your career?

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Yeah, I mean, honestly, I guess the people this will this, you know, I think to be fair, I can be honest, my parents were big influences on me.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Um, I think you probably feel the same way too. I mean, I think about people that have had the biggest influence on me. I think their humility, I think their you know, sort of their work ethic, you know, those things rubbed off on me pretty significantly. And then obviously we talked about Jennifer, my wife. I mean, she's my you know, she's been my counselor through all of these changes, you know. Every time you want to take a role or you want to move or whatever it is, you know, it's always been a real team effort. And I think she's been great. And she's so incredibly selfless. I think she always kind of grounds me too, because I can I can be a little selfish and I think she pulls me back, which is good. But the you know, I worked, I talked about Phil Sweeney. I worked with uh Shirley Webero in the governor's office, and she had been a transportation policy analyst to Elizabeth Dole and the Reagan administration, and she had a very kind of distinguished career in federal transportation policy during the 80s and in the 90s, and she was a huge mentor to me because as a young kid, you know, I was in my mid-20s, she really taught me the importance of kind of I call it sort of egalitarian leadership. You know, she had this idea, she was from Nebraska once, so I think she had just sort of these these this Midwestern ethic where everyone has a role to play, and everyone's role is important. And she always gave me the opportunity to be in the briefings with the governor or even have a part to play in those briefings, ensuring that I was prepared, getting me big assignments, and knowing that I could, you know, I could handle them. And I think that you know, I really think it on her a lot as being someone who challenged me, believed in me, you know, and and taught me, right? And I think that's what good mentors do.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

And I think you actually had the title of assistant to the secretary or the the assistant secretary of transportation in Virginia.

SPEAKER_02 27:15

That's correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was appointed appointed by the governor and I served at his pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

So that that's impressive. Yeah.

unknown 27:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

I mean, it's so funny how life works because you you easily could have there's there's so many paths you can go down. You couldn't have gone down a path where eventually you could have been a congressman or a senator. I mean, who knows? But who knows what you know, the the lottery of life. And uh yeah, and then the b the background screening industry struck a nerve, and that's great. I mean, to to the benefit of the screening industry. So, all right. That's just an amazing, it just I mean, an amazing zigzag adventure, particularly the three years in London. So that that's really special. So, Dan, I mean, with all this this marvelous you know, adventures, I mean, it's just you know, the adventures of Dan Shoemaker. What were some of the um an early lesson that you learned in your career that has stuck with you that that bubbles the top of mind?

SPEAKER_02 28:07

I think the one thing that I always go back to is you really have to take risks. And yeah, you can appreciate this, obviously, having but you're you're an entrepreneur, so you obviously know how to take risks and you have before, and and I met so many people that have, but I just think I think taking risks are just it's so important. Like if you really want to do the things that you want to do, you're gonna have to take risks. And I think, you know, every move that I made was a risk. And whether it was like the physical move or just the move into another role, and I think you just that's one thing that has served me well. Yeah, and they don't always work, by the way. Sometimes sometimes you take risks, and then you don't succeed or they don't turn out the way that you want. But you learn so much from that, right? And I just so I think that's one thing that I just a real big believer in taking risks, of trying things, of not being afraid to fail, and and kind of embracing change in your life. You know, I just think that that's I think that's kind of the secret to just staying I don't know if it's staying young, but just sort of staying active and keeping your mind working is really embracing change. So that's probably one thing that I learned early, and you know, one thing I continue to do.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

Yeah, and I I guess, and even if it doesn't work, you know, one door closes, another opens, it just it it you know, the adventure continues. You can't always predict what way, right? But something something happens. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:33

Yeah, that's exactly right. Even if it doesn't work out the way you want, you you I'm sure you will have gained something from it, right? And you do. I mean, the things that I failed in, I've gained a lot from.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

So that's fantastic. So as one of your many adventures, and you you were on the board, you know, you were early involved in the formation of PBS, PBSA, and you were on the board, and then you were chair during a a real pivotal year, the year that accreditation was adopted. And so tell us about the role of PBSA in your career.

SPEAKER_02 30:03

You know, I yeah, I I'd I've heard you say this a lot, and I think you and the founders really did a nice job of creating this culture. I was thinking about this just recently, but you know, I I like I said, when I showed up in Scottsdale and Billy said, you know, you should really get involved in this organization. You know, Derek was going to get involved in it from USIS. And I said, okay, great. I I well, I think I have a role to play. And and again, as I had said before, I had actually worked at a trade association. So I I kind of understood inherently like what it could be and the value of it. And I really felt like, obviously, given how regulated we are, the government affairs element of it was going to be critical to creating value for the membership. And so I thought, well, I'll join the government affairs committee because I understand that. I've been in politics, I've been a lobbyist, I understand how capital works and how federal agencies work and how state agencies work. And so, you know, I I kind of signed up for that quickly. And I think it was maybe a year or two later. I don't know if it was 2005. I just remember we did the first Hill Day, and I helped organize that. I remember literally calling congressional offices and setting up appointments, and we were doing, I mean, we did all of the late work that I think now is all done by you know the the real pros. Yeah, yeah. And we I think we were at the one of the hotels in Crystal City, and we were trained people about you know how to talk to members of Congress and how to talk to staffers, and it was just things that I knew. And I was like, wow, I mean, I know these things and I can contribute, you know, to the organization. And you've done it, been there, done that. Yeah, well, and and I mean, I think you know and you've always said this is that it's open. If you will volunteer and you have talents, then provide those talents. And I I really took that to heart. And so, you know, that first hill day was I think pretty pivotal to us as an organization because it we literally went and talked to the FTC, as I recall. I mean, we had some really interesting meetings where we sort of planted a flag, like, yeah, we're we're here, you know? Yeah, yeah. And then from there, then I joined the board in 2006, and I remember joining with Pam Devada, who obviously we all know and is an incredibly special person. And from there, it just you know, just continued to serve and then got the chance, obviously, to be chair. And as you said, in a really pivotal year, as we were launching really the next element of really building value to our membership, right? Which was having this credentialing process and being able to go out to the world and say, you know, we do things differently, we have a different standard, and to be able to get back to the regulators that look, we're regulating ourselves. You know, we we understand what we're doing, we have a standard that's higher than others. So it was a great experience. I mean, I think I remember serving with obviously Art Cohen, I think was the chair before me. I learned so much from him, and he was such a good and uh such an able leader, too. I think you say this, and he always said this, so there's no good deed goes unpunished. And you would always you would always remind me of that. But I think the the reality with PDSA was for me, was it was a real opportunity just to serve, you know, and to and to play a role in something that was growing, an industry that was growing. And I again I felt like they I had some talents that I could share.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

And so you were on the government relations committee prior to being on the board, right? If I recall. Correct, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:35

I think it was yeah, I think I served as the chair of the government relations committee and then jumped on the board. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

And to me, that that's the the hardest job in in the PBA uh PBSC at the time before professional staff came because there was just so much happening. You know, every every state had and most of the legislation never go anywhere, but you had to stay on top and the the federal legislation. So that to me that was like, oh my God, whoever whoever takes that on, God bless them. That's amazing. And you mentioned Art Cullen, yeah. So I think it was a chair before you, and then but this is this is my art collen white shirt. Art Cullen, uh shout out to Art. Art had the philosophy. You know, don't go shopping, just just get a bunch of white shirts and wear those every day. Right. So and and he told my wife that my wife said, Less, that's what you're doing. So now I just wear white shirts. All right. My art collin white shirt. All right. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 34:27

I could totally hear him say that. Totally hear himself.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

So so then you were you you you had a you know really critical year as chair, then you were past chair, and then you know you stayed on the board, and you've been involved in in in you know going to uh you know the conferences and all that kind of stuff, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

Yeah. When I was in the UK, you know, I helped trying to help them, you know, kind of get that organization off the ground. And to some extent, I tried to be a player on the ground, I guess, on behalf of the organization. But you know, I really kind of felt like other people should join and play a role. Like I kind of felt like I did my part. And but I and I want other people to come in and do their part. You know, so not that I didn't want to be involved, I just really felt like it was time for someone else to be involved. And so I probably didn't get as and I had other things that was going on too, obviously, from a from a business perspective, but I've stayed close to everybody and I still think I mean I I I marvel at what we have built, you know, from a trade association perspective. It's it's incredibly impressive when you think about where we were and where we are today. And I know you marvel at that, I'm sure, as well, having been there at the starting point.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

Yeah, it's sure started on a shoestring. So well, so with with all this tremendous background, I mean, and before we pivot to you know, life outside of screening, what comes to mind, you know, brings a smile to your face as something that you've accomplished professionally. You said, yeah, that was good. I uh that was really cool.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

Yeah, I I think it was, you know, my time outside the U.S., it was an amazing experience for me. We had operations in Poland, we had operations in Estonia, we built out an office in Singapore, we had an office in Hong Kong, we had clients, you know, all over the world. And I think being able to interact with people from all of those different areas and you know, bringing them together, you know, as a leader and building out the strategy at how we're going to grow this business outside the US. And I mean, obviously a lot of people were involved in that success, but I I really look back at that as being a pretty pivotal moment in my career that I think like that was kind of a a bit of a turning point, you know, because it's it's something that I think not a lot of people do. And so when it's kind of on your resume, you know, you can really talk about something that's very unique. And I love the challenge of of selling in different countries, and just be I mean, just just the process of what of wanting to understand the culture, wanting to understand the pace of the process, the importance of relationships. You know, the way we sell in the US is completely different than anywhere else in the world. Any completely different. And you know, to be successful, you have to acknowledge that and you have to kind of take off your American hat, right? And and you gotta put on, you know, sort of your diplomat hat. And I d I loved that. I thought that was just an amazing experience.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Aaron Powell That's so interesting. So just you know, we don't have an hour to go with that, but just just an example of of how selling inside of America would be different than selling in the UK or or the Asian Pacific or I mean what would be an example of that?

SPEAKER_02 37:41

Aaron Powell I think a couple examples would be my experience in the Middle East is that it's very much about relationships. And all of the conversations you have really need to be about building a relationship. You know, Americans want to get to the the business and end of the conversation quick, right? They want to close the deal, right? I mean, that's just who we are. And I think that in the Middle East, especially, relationships are critical. And if you don't cultivate those relationships, then you'll never be a part of the opportunity. And sometimes you have to cultivate those relationships for a long time before you even get the opportunity, you know, to move forward in a business setting. I think in Asia, obviously it's very formal, it's still very kind of hierarchical. I remember I made a huge mistake, cultural photo in in Japan. I was going to visit our office in Japan. In Japan, most people don't speak English, and of course I didn't speak Japanese. But there was a young woman who worked in our office there. We did, and she spoke English. And so I was talking to her, communicating to her, yeah, kind of doing all the logistics. I'll be at your office at 11 a.m., blah, blah, blah. Can you wait to see you? Etc. And so I got to the office and I met her, and I was really excited to talk to her. And I I did what I would normally do. I just started to walk around the office and talk to people. And she like looked at me like, what are you doing? Like, oh you need to go see the managing director first. Like the first person you need to go see is the boss. And so by the time I actually get he actually got me to his office, he was he was not very happy because I had made a huge culture, cultural flop. I mean, the first thing that the first person I was supposed to meet was kind of my peer, right? Was the managing director of the office. And then from there, he was gonna walk me around and show me the office, as would be the right thing to do. And so it's those kinds of things that I just you know, you learn from and you made mistakes, but I really enjoyed kind of those, those challenges of you know, trying to kind of figure that out. Like, how do I figure out the culture? How do I close this deal? How do I build these right relationships? And it was just so much fun. It was just so much fun.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

Oh, that's fantastic. So you've had so many opportunities and so many directions you could have gone. Uh I mean, just unlimited amount of things you could have done, but you chose to stay in screening. I think you kind of alluded to some of the reasons, but what what what what sort of motivated you to stay in screening and it and so successfully, I mean you you had leadership. You were a CEO, you leadership positions in in a very large happening company. What kept you in the background screening world that you find that you found fascinating, that you know, keeps your attention and keeps your interest?

SPEAKER_02 40:25

I think there's two things. I mean, I think one is I got some advice because I think early in my career, when I was in corporate development at USIS, I thought, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna leap out of this into something different. And I got some advice, which was great advice, was and it seems obvious, which is like your path to the things you want to do, it's easier to do from inside the company you're already in.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:51

And it and if you see those paths in the company you're already in, then don't look elsewhere, right? Figure out how to navigate those paths. And so that really rang true to me, and that was when I started having conversations with you know, our CEO at the time about hey, these are the things that I want to do. Can you help me figure out how to get there? And and I was very fortunate people that would help me do that. So I think that was the first thing was like actually the things that I love like I talked about wanting to be outside the US. I wanted to be a senior leader, I wanted to be a growth leader. Like the easiest path for me to do that was where I was inside this screening space. And so I, you know, I just stayed there. It was the right move for me to do the things that I'd wanted to do professionally. And then the second thing, what I really love about this space is we get to work with some of the most amazing companies in the world. Like when you think about it, Les, and you know this, like we can sell what we sell to any any employer, any employer will go by buy our plot, right? Yeah, and so there's not a lot of industries that you can work in where you can work with Fortune 500 companies, Fortune 10 companies, like to be able to interact with some of the biggest brands or the the most important companies or the you know, the most prestigious companies in the world, and to help them mitigate risk and hire great talent and all the things that we do. I mean, that like that was so cool, right? Like that to me was incredible when I got to you know be able to interact with Apple and Cisco and HSBC and JP Morgan and all these, you know, these amazing companies and these super talented people at HR and security and risk, it's like where else can you get this kind of exposure, right? I mean, so to me, that was the thing that I was kind of locked in. I was like, yeah, this is fun, this is a real challenge, and it's a little experience to be able to interact with all these different companies in these different brands.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

So that's a great observation. I mean, in all the uh interviews I've done, you're the first person, and that that's a this is a new that's a a revelation to me that you said that because I've never thought of that. You're you're right. We work the spectrum of the entire economy. And and there's some industries where you you you know that are more specialized than others, but we can get we can do all that. And that's right, we get we exposed to everybody.

unknown 43:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:21

I mean, you know this. I mean, we could be in hospital systems, we could be in grocery stores, you can be in you know banks. I mean, there's just this, and I've like I said, I've had the I've been fortunate enough to literally, you know, when you go to those corporate headquarters and you meet all the brass, I mean, that's that's pretty cool, right? I mean that's a great experience.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

And now, Dan, that's fantastic. Man, you you you have some unique experiences and some some really unique perspectives. I really appreciate that. That's really, really interesting. So I let's let's as we go down the home stretch here, let's let's pivot away from uh from from background screening and let's talk about Dan Schumacher. Outside of background screen, what are your you know we we we talked about your your family and and and how well your kids are doing? Still blows my mind that those little types are now where they are. It's like all right, and you and I haven't aged it all. But what do you do when you're when you're not you know commuting to Georgetown to get an MBA and all that kind of stuff? What are you doing for fun and what's your life outside of work? What do you guys do?

SPEAKER_02 44:22

Yeah, I mean, honestly, talk we talked about family. I love to spend time in the water, so I love being by the beach and I love to surf. I love to just be in the ocean. I think the ocean is an incredible elixir to everything that ails you in life. Surfer too? Yeah, yeah. I I'm I try at it, but I enjoy it. I mean uh it's a it's a very floaty long lord, Les. It's not very impressive. All right.

SPEAKER_01 44:47

You're our you're our you're that's right, you're our second surfer. All right. Well, what if I think Cagwell does too, if I recall.

SPEAKER_02 44:56

I think he I think he tries. He tries.

SPEAKER_00 44:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:00

But I mean, the I I think you'll find I spend most of my time playing the drums in a cover band. So I've been playing the drums since I was a kid, and you know, when I was playing in San Diego with some guys, and we just had a we had a great time, and and when I got here, I got courtious enough to hook up with some people. And I play in this, like we do 90s and 2000s kind of alt-rock covers, and we play out once or twice a month and you know, practice once a week or so, and it's a fantastic outlet. I mean, it's just so much fun. It's a kind of an artistic outlet, but it's also you know, it's a good way to relieve a little stress, right? I mean, to be able to gun banging the drums for a bit. So that's probably my biggest kind of hobby right now is just continue to do that.

SPEAKER_01 45:46

Wow, all the all the time I'm doing you. I had no idea that you were a drum player. That's amazing. And you play you played a cover van.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

That's crap.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

The opinion's called 96 Wave. You can follow us on Instagram, on Facebook. Check us out.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

Okay. Oh, fantastic. All right, folks, you heard it here. As soon as you're done, you go to 96 Wave, check out Dan, drumming away. All right, on a cover band. That's that's fantastic. I had no idea. Uh we and uh we usually at this point ask for for a fun fact, some fact that you know people may not know or suspect about you, but I think you already revealed it. That that you're a that you're a drummer, a cover band. No idea at all. That you had this secret life. Your kids know about this? I mean, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:29

I mean they're they're my biggest fans and supporters. The hardest part of the less though is these shows start at like 10 p.m. and some of them don't end at like one. And I mean, it is a struggle. I mean, for you know, a 50-30-year-old man to be getting up that or to be staying up that late.

SPEAKER_01 46:47

So that's all right. So any any other fun facts we know and any any other secrets, anything that that has not here to before been revealed that people can unmercifully tease you about next time they see you at a c at a conference? All right.

SPEAKER_02 47:02

Well, I guess the other, I mean, the only thing about me that I think most people don't know is I'm a big train buff. So we talked about my passion for transportation policy, and I I kind of got there through my dad and work for the railroad, and I just kind of grew up being a big train bus. And so my dad and I would he would take me on these train excursions when I was a kid behind steam locomotives that were still running. And we would do this in the summertime, and I just I still to this day, I just I'm fascinated by I love trains, I love riding them, I love seeing them. In fact, my dad and I and my son John were in Virginia earlier this fall doing a steam excursion together, and it's the first time we'd done it in a while, so it was a lot of fun. But that to me is like that's my geek. I'm a train geek, I guess is the best way to develop.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

Fantastic. And and there's lots of those around the country still, but there's just lots of places where they have you know, next summer I'm gonna try to do the Durango's the Silverton uh train, but that's there've been a big revival in these uh you know, yeah, they may not go that far, but that's great. That's so much fun.

SPEAKER_02 48:07

Yeah, there's something magical about launching a steam engine. I mean, it's just such an impressive piece of like machinery, right? Just the way it works. And I of course I don't have my dad was an engineer, like a mechanic one year, so he completely understood how it worked, but I just think there's something really magical about that.

SPEAKER_00 48:25

All right.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

Well, there you go. So so the perfect day would be doing a having a gig on a train, right? Totally. All right. Exactly. Get your drums in the train and do a a two or three hour concert.

SPEAKER_00 48:42

All right.

SPEAKER_01 48:43

Oh man, Dan, I I I think we've covered so much. Is there is is there anything that we haven't covered that you uh want to talk about that we haven't fully revealed here? Or do you want to keep a couple of secrets still?

SPEAKER_02 48:56

No, I don't I mean, I don't think so. I don't I don't have any more secrets. I mean, I just I think this has been this has been great. This has been a lot of fun. And I your whole series I think is incredible. I as I've as been as I've listened to it, it's just been really fun kind of thinking back, you know, yeah, where I met a lot of these people and you know, the times that I've had with them. I think you know that there is something special about that for me, you know, and I and I think that you know, people like you and art and others that embraced me when I was younger, and then people like Pam and Jason, who were you know my age at the time. I mean, it was just it's just and it's just it was a special time for me, and I just it was fun to kind of reminisce a bit with it.

SPEAKER_01 49:41

So yeah, and and it continues because you're still you're you're still up to it, up to up to your neck and doing lots of stuff. So all right. Totally, definitely. It's not ending. Well, this has been fantastic talk to you. I mean, uh I mean I mean, given all your perspective and your experience and and and your your emphasis on mentorship, that yeah, you had the chance to be mentored and you had the chance to mentor people, and and you know, given the fact that you were a CEO during a big acquisition period, what would be your advice for you know, not newcomers? And I I define that broadly, either someone who's just starting or maybe someone's been in the industry for a few years, but they're you know they're not in management or leadership yet, but they like to you know maybe chart a course for that. What what's what's your advice? What's what what use what say you?

SPEAKER_02 50:32

You know, just uh I'll kind of go back to my take the risk, just jump in. I mean, I think you just gotta jump in. And PVSA, whether it's getting involved in that, I think it's still very much an organization that is incredibly welcoming, wants to use your talents, you know, welcomes your talents. So I just think there's a real opportunity for you to just jump in and just take the risk. So I think for people that are kind of coming into this space, it's a great way to get involved and it's an easy way to get involved.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

So I think a lot of people don't realize that even if you are just a not just a but but you're you're a a records you know person or your your verification person, you can call PBSA and get on a committee. It doesn't matter where you are, you don't have to be you you can you can be in the lower rung or or as they say in Star Trek, you know, you can be in the lower deck and you can still become a force in the industry, just if you want to. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 51:28

Yeah, it's it's such a it's such an egalitarian place, you know. It's just it's it's everyone plays a role, and to your point, everyone can can be whatever they want to be. If they just put in the energy and the effort and the commitment.

SPEAKER_01 51:43

Yeah, that's a true meritocracy. If you have the time and a little bit of talent, and you're able to play play nice with others, all right. The world is open to you. Well, Dan, this has been great. And let me uh conclude by giving you the last word, giving you the floor. The floor is yours. Anything you want to add or say? The world is listening. Yeah, no, I appreciate that, Les.

SPEAKER_02 52:04

I mean, again, I just I mean, I'm just I'm thankful to everyone, to you, and to everyone that has had a a role in where I've been and where I am now. So I just appreciate that. And I really appreciate the conversation. So and I'm excited about the future of this space. I think the future is bright. I mean, I think the macroeconomic climate this year will be better. Yep. And I think that you know, technology is really obviously gonna continue to drive us forward as an industry. So I'm excited. I'm excited about the future.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

That's true. I mean, we've all we've all lived through economics up and downs, and and it always ends up going up, and the technology pushes it up, so so it's all gonna happen. Well, Dan, it's been a pleasure talking to you. I mean, it's just been so much fun and and and learning things I hadn't known before, and particularly that you're that your your ambition to be a drummer on a train. Right. So I really appreciate you being here. I I I thank you very much. Likewise, thank you, Les. Thank you. And ladies and gentlemen, this has been uh an absolutely great session with my my good friend, with as I said at the beginning, and and I and what I said was proved true, had a uh a truly a distinguished and illustrious career that is ongoing. Mr. Dan Shoemaker. So on behalf of our sponsor for the podcast, Barry Nixon in the pre-employment screening directory, uh appreciate you listening in, and we will be back next time with another guest. Dan Shoemaker, thanks again. Thanks, Les. Thanks. All right, that was yet another wonderful conversation with a background screening pro. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to hit subscribe so you never miss an update. And hey, if you got a moment, we'd love for you to leave us a review. It really helps get the word out. For more info or to catch up on past episodes, or to make suggestions or to suggest possible future guests, head over to our website. Once again, this is your host Les Rosen, and it's been a pleasure to bring you another episode. See you on the next episode. Thanks.